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TOLKIENPEDIA - Una Wiki per Domarle Tutte ha scritto:Isengard, conosciuta anche come Angrenost, fu una delle fortezze costruite da Gondor per proteggere i confini occidentali e, cosa molto importante, custodiva nella torre di Orthanc uno dei sette Palantir del portati da Elendil nella Terra di Mezzo.

TOLKIENPEDIA - Una Wiki per Domarle Tutte ha scritto:Isenmouthe o Carach Angren era un valico nel nord-ovest di Mordor. Il passo si trovana all'incontro tra gli speroni che si estendevano dalle catene dell'Ephel Dúath e degli Ered Lithui, lasciando solo uno stretto passaggio tra l'altopiano di Gorgoroth e la valle più piccola di Udûn a nord.

J. R. R. Tolkien, «Guide to the Names in The Lord of the Rings» ha scritto:Isengard and Isenmouthe. These names were intended to represent translations into the Common Speech of the Elvish names Angrenost and Carach Angren, but ones made at so early a date that at the period of the tale they had become archaic in form and their original meanings were obscured. They can therefore be left unchanged, though translation (of one or both elements in either name) would be suitable, and I think desirable when the language of translation is Germanic, possessing related elements. Isen is an old variant form in English of iron; gard a Germanic word meaning 'enclosure', especially one round a dwelling or group of buildings; and mouthe a derivative of mouth, representing Old English mūða from mūð 'mouth') 'opening', especially used of the mouths of rivers, but also applied to other openings (not parts of a body). Isengard 'the Iron-court' was so called because of the great hardness of the stone in that place and especially in the central tower. The Isenmouthe was so called because of the great fence of pointed iron posts that closed the gap leading into Udûn, like teeth in jaws (see III 197, 209). In the Dutch and Swedish versions Isengard is left unchanged. For Isenmouthe the Dutch uses Isenmonde, translating or assimilating to Dutch only the second element (a more complete translation to Ijzermonde would seem to me better). The Swedish renders it Isensgap, which is incorrect, since Isen is not a proper name but adjectival. The gard element appears in Old Norse garðr, whence current or dialectal Swedish gård, Danish gaard, and English garth (beside the original English form yard); this, though usually of more lowly associations (as English farmyard), appears for instance in Old Norse As-garðr, now widely known as Asgard in mythology. The word was early lost in German, except in Old High German mittin- or mittil-gart (the inhabited lands of Men) = Old Norse mið-garðr, and Old English middan-geard: see Middle-earth. Would not this old element in German form -gart be suitable for a translation or assimilation to German such as Eisengart? Of -mouthe the German equivalent appears to be Mün-dung (or in place-names -munde); in Scandinavian, Danish munding, Swedish mynning. Note. Whatever form is used in Isengard must also be used in the name of the River Isen, since the river-name was derived from Isengard, in which it had its source.

Lorenzo Federici ha scritto: mar, 23 gen 2024 23:11 Isengarda (come Midegarda) e Isemmonda possono andare?

G. M. ha scritto: mer, 24 gen 2024 0:34 Cintazzaio, Cintazzaro... il fiume Azzaio...

Lorenzo Federici ha scritto: mar, 23 gen 2024 23:11 Isengarda (come Midegarda) e Isemmonda possono andare? In un contesto italiano sarebbero più o meno giustificabili come adattamenti dal longobardo [...]

brg ha scritto: mer, 24 gen 2024 15:02 Qui si giunge al problema che indicavo nella discussione su "Baggins": che la costruzione linguistica, che tiene insieme e connette l'universo fantastico tolkienano (o tolchinano) all'ambiente familiare al lettore, traballa e crolla se si pretende di adattarla parzialmente o se si pretende di estraniarla dal mondo a cui si appoggia, di carattere bucolico inglese. Nella finzione il mondo linguistico della Terra di Mezzo viene trasfigurato tramite un esercizio di filologia germanica; nella realtà, però, è avvenuto l'esatto contrario: l'artificio linguistico serve a giustificare l'esistenza della Contea, proiezione fiabesca della campagna inglese, in una versione romanzata ed eclettica dell'epica germanica ambientata nella Terra di Mezzo, un mondo alieno. O si accetta che quel mondo è descritto da un sistema linguistico germanico o si deve giuocoforza pensare a come trasporre tutto il materiale in una ambientazione differente, che giustifichi una differente architettura linguistica.

Lorenzo Federici ha scritto: gio, 25 gen 2024 15:32

Fuori tema

Perché il comune di Strangolagalli si chiama così? Deriva dal germanico e significherebbe palizzata circolare o altrimenti bosco circolare. Stessa cosa.

Rimane comunque oscuro ai più. Volendo, potremmo fare Arnesgarda e Arnesmonda incrociandoli con arnese ma comunque rimarrebbe oscuro, non meno del banale adattamento.

brg ha scritto: mer, 24 gen 2024 15:02 Qui si giunge al problema che indicavo nella discussione su "Baggins": che la costruzione linguistica, che tiene insieme e connette l'universo fantastico tolkienano (o tolchinano) all'ambiente familiare al lettore, traballa e crolla se si pretende di adattarla parzialmente o se si pretende di estraniarla dal mondo a cui si appoggia, di carattere bucolico inglese. Nella finzione il mondo linguistico della Terra di Mezzo viene trasfigurato tramite un esercizio di filologia germanica; nella realtà, però, è avvenuto l'esatto contrario: l'artificio linguistico serve a giustificare l'esistenza della Contea, proiezione fiabesca della campagna inglese, in una versione romanzata ed eclettica dell'epica germanica ambientata nella Terra di Mezzo, un mondo alieno. O si accetta che quel mondo è descritto da un sistema linguistico germanico o si deve giuocoforza pensare a come trasporre tutto il materiale in una ambientazione differente, che giustifichi una differente architettura linguistica.

The language represented in this history by English was the Westron or ‘Common Speech’ of the West-lands of Middle-earth in the Third Age. In the course of that age it had become the native language of nearly all the speaking-peoples (save the Elves) who dwelt within the bounds of the old kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor […]

The Westron was a Mannish speech, though enriched and softened under Elvish influence. It was in origin the language of those whom the Eldar called the Atani or Edain, ‘Fathers of Men’, being especially the people of the Three Houses of the Elf-friends who came west into Beleriand in the First Age, and aided the Eldar in the War of the Great Jewels against the Dark Power of the North. […]

The Hobbits of the Shire and of Bree had at this time, for probably a thousand years, adopted the Common Speech. They used it in their own manner freely and carelessly; though the more learned among them had still at their command a more formal language when occasion required. […]

In presenting the matter of the Red Book [= Il Signore degli Anelli], as a history for people of today to read, the whole of the linguistic setting has been translated as far as possible into terms of our own times. Only the languages alien to the Common Speech have been left in their original form; but these appear mainly in the names of persons and places.
The Common Speech, as the language of the Hobbits and their narratives, has inevitably been turned into modern English. In the process the difference between the varieties observable in the use of the Westron has been lessened. Some attempt has been made to represent varieties by variations in the kind of English used […]

Translation of this kind is, of course, usual because inevitable in any narrative dealing with the past. It seldom proceeds any further. But I have gone beyond it. I have also translated all Westron names according to their
senses. When English names or titles appear in this book it is an indication that names in the Common Speech were current at the time, beside, or instead of, those in alien (usually Elvish) languages.
The Westron names were as a rule translations of older names: as Rivendell, Hoarwell, Silverlode, Langstrand, The Enemy, the Dark Tower. Some differed in meaning: as Mount Doom for Orodruin ‘burning mountain’, or Mirkwood for Taur e-Ndaedelos ‘forest of the great fear’. A few were alterations of Elvish names: as Lune and Brandywine derived from Lhûn and Baranduin.
This procedure perhaps needs some defence. It seemed to me that to present all the names in their original forms would obscure an essential feature of the times as perceived by the Hobbits (whose point of view I was
mainly concerned to preserve): the contrast between a wide-spread language, to them as ordinary and habitual as English is to us, and the living remains of far older and more reverend tongues. All names if merely transcribed would seem to modern readers equally remote: for instance, if the Elvish name Imladris and the Westron translation Karningul had both been left unchanged. But to refer to Rivendell as Imladris was as if one now was to speak of Winchester as Camelot, except that the identity was certain, while in Rivendell there still dwelt a lord of renown far older than Arthur would be, were he still king at Winchester today.
The name of the Shire (Sûza) and all other places of the Hobbits have thus been Englished. This was seldom difficult, since such names were commonly made up of elements similar to those used in our simpler English place-names; either words still current like hill or field; or a little worn down like ton beside town. But some were derived, as already noted, from old hobbit-words no longer in use, and these have been represented by similar English things, such as wich, or bottle ‘dwelling’, or michel ‘great’.
In the case of persons, however, Hobbit-names in the Shire and in Bree were for those days peculiar, notably in the habit that had grown up, some centuries before this time, of having inherited names for families. Most of these surnames had obvious meanings (in the current language being derived from jesting nicknames, or from place-names, or – especially in Bree – from the names of plants and trees). Translation of these presented little difficulty; but there remained one or two older names of forgotten meaning, and these I have been content to anglicize in spelling: as Took for Tûk, or Boffin for Bophîn. […]

Having gone so far in my attempt to modernize and make familiar the language and names of Hobbits, I found myself involved in a further process. The Mannish languages that were related to the Westron should, it seemed to me, be turned into forms related to English. The language of Rohan I have accordingly made to resemble ancient English, since it was related both (more distantly) to the Common Speech, and (very closely) to the former tongue of the northern Hobbits, and was in comparison with the Westron archaic. In the Red Book it is noted in several places that when Hobbits heard the speech of Rohan they recognized many words and felt the language to be akin to their own, so that it seemed absurd to leave the recorded names and words of the Rohirrim in a wholly alien style.
In several cases I have modernized the forms and spellings of place-names in Rohan: as in Dunharrow or Snowbourn; but I have not been consistent, for I have followed the Hobbits. They altered the names that they heard in the same way, if they were made of elements that they recognized, or if they resembled place-names in the Shire; but many they left alone, as I have done, for instance, in Edoras ‘the courts’. For the same reasons a few personal names have also been modernized, as Shadowfax and Wormtongue.¹ […]

¹ This linguistic procedure does not imply that the Rohirrim closely resembled the ancient English otherwise, in culture or art, in weapons or modes of warfare, except in a general way due to their circumstances: a simpler and more primitive people living in contact with a higher and more venerable culture, and occupying lands that had once been part of its domain.

G.B. ha scritto: ven, 26 gen 2024 10:09[…] [L]a facies germanica e, specificamente, anglosassone dell'onomastica usata nei libri di Tolkien è una scelta stilistica e un omaggio al carattere germanico delle storie narrate oppure è la conseguenza del fatto che una o piú lingue del suo universo si fondano s'una serie di radici germaniche, apparendo se non piú o meno intelligibili, almeno «piú o meno inglesi» a un pubblico anglofono di lettori, il quale vi coglie una certa impressione di antichità?

G. M. ha scritto: ven, 26 gen 2024 11:02In soldoni, nella finzione narrativa per cui il libro è scritto in inglese, Tolkien «traduce» molti elementi di queste lingue immaginarie in inglese, o in forme antiche o strane d'inglese, per replicare più o meno, per il lettore inglese, le sensazioni e le evoluzioni —talvolta trasparenti, talvolta opache— di questi elementi linguistici nel suo mondo rispetto alla «lingua comune» parlata dai personaggi principali nella finzione (resa con l'inglese nella «traduzione»).